PureDoxyk ([info]pure_doxyk) wrote,

Can’t anti-racism be color-blind?

Maybe it’s the philosopher in me, but I don’t see how any argument against racism that depends on color to make its point is valuable in the long run.  If the goal is to end racism, which I hope it is, then shouldn’t we be engaged in activities and rhetoric that de-emphasize skin color (etc.) as a valid reason to make political (and by extension certain types of personal) decisions?

[Edit: If you're reading this on PD.com, you may want to head over to the mirror-post on my LJ to read the huge glut of awesome and thoughtful commentary it provoked there.  I got a lot out of it, and thank you to everyone who participated/is participating!]

I’d like to give one example, with the understanding that there is a whole can of worms here that has to do with re-balancing and re-distributing privilege, which I’m deliberately not getting into (for now).  My current thoughts, and this example, stem from this interesting “definition of racism”, from this post “Racism 101 for Clueless White People“.  The emphasis is all theirs; I’ve added nothing.

3. Make sure you understand the definitions of the terms that are going to be used. The first thing you really need to understand is that the definition of racism that you probably have (which is the colloquial definition: “racism is prejudice against someone based on their skin color or ethnicity”) is NOT the definition that’s commonly used in anti-racist circles.The definition used in anti-racist circles is the accepted sociological definition (which is commonly used in academic research, and has been used for more than a decade now): “racism is prejudice plus power”. What this means, in easy language:

A. Anyone can hold “racial prejudice” — that is, they can carry positive or negative stereotypes of others based on racial characteristics. For example, a white person thinking all Asians are smart, or all black people are criminals; or a Chinese person thinking Japanese people are untrustworthy; or what-have-you. ANYONE, of any race, can have racial prejudices.

B. People of any race can commit acts of violence, mistreatment, ostracizing, etc., based on their racial prejudices. A black kid can beat up a white kid because he doesn’t like white kids. An Indian person can refuse to associate with Asians. Whatever, you get the idea.

C. However, to be racist (rather than simply prejudiced) requires having institutional power. In North America, white people have the institutional power. In large part we head the corporations; we make up the largest proportion of lawmakers and judges; we have the money; we make the decisions. In short, we control the systems that matter. “White” is presented as normal, the default. Because we have institutional power, when we think differently about people based on their race or act on our racial prejudices, we are being racist. Only white people can be racist, because only white people have institutional power.

D. People of color can be prejudiced, but they cannot be racist, because they don’t have the institutional power. (However, some people refer to intra-PoC prejudice as “lateral racism”. You may also hear the term “colorism”, which refers to lighter-skinned PoC being prejudiced toward darker-skinned PoC.) However, that situation can be different in other countries; for example, a Japanese person in Japan can be racist against others, because the Japanese have the institutional power there. But in North America, Japanese people can’t be racist because they don’t hold the institutional power.

E. If you’re in an area of your city/state/province that is predominantly populated by PoC and, as a white person, you get harassed because of your skin color, it’s still not racism, even though you’re in a PoC-dominated area. The fact is, even though they’re the majority population in that area, they still lack the institutional power. They don’t have their own special PoC-dominated police force for that area. They don’t have their own special PoC-dominated courts in that area. The state/province and national media are still not dominated by PoC. Even though they have a large population in that particular area, they still lack the institutional power overall.

F. So that’s the definition of racism that you’re likely to encounter. If you start talking about “reverse racism” you’re going to either get insulted or laughed at, because it isn’t possible under that definition; PoC don’t have the power in North America, so by definition, they can’t be racist. Crying “reverse racism!” is like waving a Clueless White Person Badge around.

G. If you go into an anti-racist discussion and start trying to claim the colloquial definition that “racism is simply viewing or treating others differently based on race”, you’re going to get a negative reaction. Stick to “racism = prejudice + power”. Anti-racists aren’t going to take it well if you wander in halfway through the debate and start trying to make them abide by your definition rather than the commonly accepted “prejudice + power”. Imagine if everyone in a classroom was chatting about a particular subject and then someone walked in and said, “No! You’re all doing it wrong! The REAL definition is ABC and I don’t care that all the rest of you think it’s XYZ!” — do you think that would go over well? Of course it wouldn’t; the newcomer would be considered rude. (Also, making an appeal to Dictionary.com is not going to work. Pointing out that the colloquial definition is how Webster’s Dictionary defines racism is not going to make anti-racists suddenly say, “Wow, you know what? You’re right! I never realized it, but now that Webster’s has backed you up, I see that you’re totally right and racism really is just judging people based on their skin color!” Actually, they may say that, but they’d be saying it sarcastically.)

H. I’m under the impression there are a number of different reasons why anti-racists use the sociological definition as versus the colloquial one, but the major reason I’m aware of is that anti-racists aren’t just focusing on individual acts of racism; they’re looking at racism as an entrenched system that pervades every layer of our society. The colloquial definition reduces racism to an individual level; the sociological definition focuses on the systemic level. The systemic level is actually more important, because even as individual/obvious acts of racism become less socially acceptable, the systemic effects of institutionalized racism continue to work quietly, efficiently, and powerfully. Think of it like a body; it’s easy to find a cancerous lesion on the skin and remove it, and then you’d look like you were cancer-free. But even as you looked fine on the surface, the real cancer would be inside your body, spreading from lymph node to lymph node, and invading your bones and organs. Individual and overt acts of racism are the lesions on the surface; the invisible cancer is the systemic racism. Unless you’re addressing the underlying disease, eradicating surface symptoms isn’t going to accomplish much. But that’s enough about the definition of racism for now; let’s continue.  (Full post here.)

I’m completely in agreement that CWP need a guide like this (it’s awesome, and the rest is worth a read); it’s absolutely true that there’s a tendency of (mostly)-well-meaning whites to wander into race-relevant situations and start a conversation that either a) completely misses the point or b) demands that everyone please educate them right now ok I’m waaaaaaitiiiinnnng…  So hell yes, more things written to educate whites about racism and how to talk about it, absolutely. Awesome.  I’m also quite okay with the idea that “this is the definition we use, so don’t barge in demanding a new one or trying to change ours” — but there’s a fine line between that, and demanding that no-one (especially no pesky outsiders) challenge your ideas, and across that line I will not follow.

*REVERSE COWGIRL*

But this excerpt in particular addresses something that, to most (educated) anti-racists is an occasional case or a non-issue, but which to me is not:  I’m referring to the white person stuck in a (yes I’m calling it a) “reverse racism” scenario who wants some acknowledgment from PoC that their (people of color’s) behavior (individually and as the heads of institutions) in that case isn’t okay either.

And it’s not, of course.  I think the idea of “anti-racism” is that racism isn’t okay in principle, right?  No matter who’s doing it?  But there are genuinely people who use definitions like this, that categorically deny the possibility of racism against white people, to excuse behavior that does qualify as racist under this definition. You literally get an argument that goes “racism is prejudice plus power, unless it’s prejudice against and power over white people, in which case it’s not.”

Of course, the answer to that statement is often given as “but that never happens”.  And maybe it’s easier for me to spot how making color a part of the formulation of racism is problematic, because I’ve seen the prejudice-plus-power of a non-white population in effect.  I personally know more than a few people who, growing up as whites in Detroit, experienced continuous exposure to a kind of ostracization and mistreatment that can only be called “Jim-Crow-like”.  I’m not talking about being called “honky” or feeling uncomfortable walking around at night. I’m talking about a whole childhood (sometimes longer) of not being served in restaurants, not being permitted to apply for public assistance and scholarships because you’re the wrong color, being harassed in school by kids and adults alike; of being openly taught that your race is inferior and bad and you’re inferior and bad because of it, and forced to “act dangerous” and constantly live in fear for your safety because you “don’t belong” and you might be blamed or punished for anything perceived as being the fault of your race.  Any time a person of color experiences that kind of oppression, we encourage each other to call it out, to call it racism.  And while it’s certainly FAR less common, and not in keeping with the habits of our country as a whole, to have it happen to white people, I fail to see what good comes from denying the harm it causes when it does.

The point of being anti-racism isn’t to be anti-white (I hope); it’s to be anti-institutionally-supported-prejudice.  At least, that’s why I’m in.

According to this article, which certainly boasts more authority on the topic than I do, living the way some white kids in Detroit have is not being a victim of racism.  Those kids, who grew up a minority in a situation where the majority feels justified in (and is capable of) openly and systemically mistreating people of the “wrong race”, may forever be shut out of any discussion of what it’s like to be a victim of racism…because they’re the wrong color. Yeah, the irony on that one stings a little.  But according to this article and others (many of which are taught in Detroit schools), “reverse racism” is impossible, because “racism” as a technical term here refers only to cases involving prejudice AND institutional power, and moreover (here’s where I think the problem lies), “institutional power” is defined as NATIONAL power.

*INSTITUTIONS AND THE REAL WORLD*

It’s true, by that definition, that whites have the institutional power in the U.S.  It’s also true that the majority of politicians and cops in Michigan are white.  But it’s not true that white privilege operates in a place like Detroit the same way it does in New York or Dallas or Boston.  And while there are probably other places — small towns maybe, or other cities or parts of them, where non-white power-structures have built up and become racist, Detroit makes a good and powerful example of how it can happen, and happen here, right in the middle of the good-ol’ nonthreatening midwest.

Detroit isn’t a “diverse” city — it’s a heavily-segregated, almost-entirely-black city.   (That’s not to say it isn’t affected by the institutional power of white-dominated things nearby; obviously such arrangements are complicated.  But it IS possible to grow up there and be mostly, or entirely, under the control of institutions dominated by blacks, which is all the sociological definition of “racism” requires, I think.)  My white friends who grew up there were often one of less than ten white kids in all-black schools, taught by black teachers and run by black administrators, under a school board that was almost entirely black, overseen by a majority-black city council and a black mayor, enforced by a largely black police force in a place mostly ignored by white media and even the white politicians of our own state.  (If that seems outrageous to you, it should:  Segregation in the 21st century is not pretty, and Detroit has somehow gone from being the cradle of Civil Rights to the drainage-ditch of post-modern segregation.  Yuck.)  But somehow, the fact that it’s a poor white kid being tromped on by an entire cityful of angry and prejudiced people is supposed to save them, or ameliorate their pain and fear and the other negative effects of the treatment they received. Why?  Is their whiteness supposed to comfort them, or shield them?

Tell me, when you were ten or twelve or fifteen, how much good did the adults and institutions fifty miles away do you?  In a poor, neglected neighborhood that everybody’s either afraid of or disgusted by, how does the “national media” help you?  How much does it do for you in real life, that most of the people on TV are white like you?  (Other than to make you feel like a totally crappy specimen, of course.)  And to what degree should we, those of us interested in standing up against racism, ignore or push away the victims who were, or are, caught up in such a situation?

I’m not saying that Detroit is some kind of racial otherword, but I do think it serves as a powerful example to raise good questions about where “institutional power” is really located. When you’re a kid in a city, does the fact that the state governor is white protect you from the effects of prejudice-plus-power racism?  Is it those effects on you, and people like you, or the overall balance of state power that matters? When you’re afraid in school and none of the teachers will stand up for you and everyone wants to beat you up if you try to date anyone who’s not one of the two girls of your race in the whole school and you know the cops wouldn’t do anything about it….when your school hires speakers to come talk about how bad white people are and you’re squirming in the audience, is it not racism because you’re white and whites have the institutional power at the state and federal level?

Racism is about what happens to people, in their neighborhoods and schools and workplaces and lives, and not just “entire groups of people, nation-wide”.  That’s one of those generalities that ends up hurting everyone, I think.  The real world, at ground-level, is where a systemic problem like racism starts…and stops.  Racism is about power, and not just prejudice.  But one city, and one neighborhood, is certainly not the same as all others when it comes to the balance of power.   Maybe there IS a welfare program, and a federal law that says that you’re allowed to apply for it — but we understand the harm when the white people working the counter “lose” your application because you’re black; why can’t we understand that in places like Detroit, the reverse happens, and that it’s just as harmful and wrong when it does?

On top of that, children, who are arguably worse affected by all of this (considering the educational and psychological damage, which I should add is quite definitely present in the “white kids from Detroit” I still know), usually don’t have the option to leave even their neighborhoods, so if the north-east side, for example, is black-controlled and using that institutional power to back up its prejudice against whites, then I think it’s inarguable that what those kids experience is racism.  Any definition of racism that categorically denies someone’s experiences, and the effects those experiences have, simply because “they’re white” is just not okay with me. If racism is wrong, it’s because it’s wrong for any human beings to treat any human beings that way.

…Somebody’s going to ask if I feel this way, or if it’s easier for me to feel this way, because I’m white.  Obviously my “white guilt” gets a little soothing when I think about things like “reverse racism”; that’s a fact of psychology.  I’m aware of this, and I’m just as incapable of taking off my skin as everyone else, so it’ll have to remain an open question.  But I can say that I’m also a woman, and that I genuinely feel the same way about male victims of rape as I do about white victims of racism:  They exist, and they are genuine victims, and they don’t function as evidence against the overwhelming reality of the problem (of racism-against-PoCs, or rape-against-women).  They–the “backwards” or unusual cases–are good reminders, I think, for the crusaders, to help them remember that it’s the crime they’re up against and out to defeat; not the group that mostly comprises the perpetrators.  (If it were the perpetrators, then we would just be the “other side” in the same stupid war that’s been going on for millennia, and not really about solving anything at all.  I, and I think others, are interested in solving racism, not lobbing stones back at the “white side”.)  Victims of “reverse” rape or racism deserve support and protection because rape is wrong just like racism is wrong, and it’s crucial, if we’re going to make any headway in alleviating the actual problems, to stand by our principles no matter who the victim is. I really do feel that way.  So maybe that helps.

(A sidenote:  Isn’t it, I wonder, monumentally stupid for the anti-racist movement to ignore or de-legitimize these rare people who have an amazing and valuable point of view to offer?  They’re white, and they’ve experienced systemic racism firsthand!  That may make them seem scary to those of us who are either only white, or only victims of racism (much like feminists and men tend to get uncomfortable around men who’ve experienced rape, I’ve noticed), but let’s get over the fear that the existence of a few of these people somehow damages or lessens our point about the rest of the country — it doesn’t. And lest you wonder, all of the “reverse-victims” that I know are not only rabidly anti-racism, but far better than most white people–including me–at spotting where institutional racism comes into play.  Moreover, they know firsthand that racism is bad for everyone, that even those “with privilege” aren’t safe from its negative effects.  They could be amazingly helpful to the movement, I think, were they not being excluded from it.)

*WORKING TOGETHER*

I’m not, overall, in disagreement with the definition of racism given here, or how it’s presented. I see that it’s intended to address political racism, the kind that affects whole groups, and not just the prejudices and assholery of a given person or small group.  That’s valid.   I know that the “reverse racism doesn’t exist” argument is mostly intended to stop whites who would try to use reverse-cases as a reason to not work on solving the problem of racism-against-PoCs, and while I agree that those people need to be slapped answered, I don’t think shutting the door on all victims of racism who happen to be white is the way to do it.

I also don’t think we need to rewrite or make major changes to anti-racism so that we can focus on the tiny minority of whites in America that suffers from the “reverse” variety; it would be enough just to include them as real but non-standard victims, and to do a little walking-the-walk, by treating them the same as other victims in spite of how uncomfortable their color makes us feel.  Regarding that,  I have some suggestions I’d like to make, which perhaps others have already made, but here they are anyway:

1) Let’s re-think what “institutional power” is, and how it affects real people. One police station, one school and one court, working together, especially in an isolated or ignored area, can wield incredible power over the lives of families and individuals, and saying “they could leave” is short-sighted and victim-blaming.  Some racism happens on a federal level; some doesn’t.  And the feds can’t (and/or won’t) rescue citizens (even white citizens) who are trapped by localized racist institutions, so just because the feds are your color doesn’t guarantee you 100% protection from institutionalized racism.  Regardless of their color, individuals and families deserve protecting from prejudiced institutions and systematic oppression.  Representation in Washington is important, but it alone doesn’t solve the problem on the ground in a million different neighborhoods.

2)  Anti-racists need to be very, very careful about excluding any group by race from their definitions and discussions, even if that race is white. While it makes sense to be proactive and on-the-lookout for defensiveness and redirection from whites who either don’t understand privilege and real, institutional racism or have motives for derailing discussions about it, it doesn’t make sense to get so wrapped up in colors that you lose track of what racism is really about:  A powerful negative effect on groups of people, caused by irrational prejudiced ostracization and abuse from other, powered, groups of people.  In the pure sense, racism can happen wherever there are two races and one is in power, even if the colors involved are green and purple (or bellies-with-stars and bellies without!) — and it’s the racist behavior of people and groups of people that we’re fighting here, right?  Nor should it shock us that racism against white people in a majority-controlled non-white area is not only possible, it happens.  Why is that surprising?  People — human beings, regardless of color — tend to be ignorant racist assholes if not properly educated. We know this.  People who claim to be anti-racist but who can ignore the plight of some victims of racism because they’re white are, um, missing the point I think.

3)  If we’re going to define racism in such a way that excludes “individual and small-group prejudices and assholery”, that’s fine I guess, but then can’t we have another word, or a sub-term, that does include that concept? Often I&SGP&A (whether against whites or people of color) is the clearest direct experience of anything like racism that whites know they have, so to cut it out of the conversation entirely — to say “that doesn’t count, moving on” — does encourage whites to disengage from the discussion, not because they’re dickheads but because you’ve removed the aspect that they have the most direct and emotionally-compelling knowledge of.  That was their way in to understanding bigger, more subtle racism, so why slam that door?  I would very much like to see anti-racists taking more of an inclusive angle on individual prejudice & assholery, something along the lines of “Yes, it’s terrible when that happens.  And just imagine the damage a court system run by people who think that way can do!  For example…”

4)  Let’s not forget that whites are a very very important part of the discussion here, okay? It’s analogous to men and rape.  The party responsible, as a group, for the atrocity under discussion doesn’t like discussing it; and their victims don’t want to sit down and have heart-to-hearts with them either.  Everybody’s hurt and angry and understandably so.  But there is no healing a rift without cross-boundary cooperation.  The only way for women to prevent rape, or people of color to prevent racism, is to get down on the ground and talk openly and honestly with the other side.  (Well, the other way would be to segregate fully — whether by race or gender is a fun question — and then we can all stay enemies and stay out of each others’ way.  But we’re assuming that nobody reading this is pro-segregation; I’m certainly not.)

If we want to get along, we have to talk to each other, to the victims and the bad guys and the people who don’t understand and the people who don’t want to understand, and that means that yes, Virginia, it IS important how your anti-racism rhetoric makes white people feel.  Sorry.

(Thanks for reading!  -PD)

Originally published at *Transcendental *Logic. You can comment here or there.

Tags: aesthetica, better thinking, detroit, ethics, gaveldrop, haven, philosophy, poly-ticks

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  • 27 comments

[info]flamingjune07

August 26 2009, 00:45:01 UTC 2 years ago

I don't really have time to read/respond in detail right now, but I did want to put in a point of defense for some things -- I think the notion at the base of a lot of the "there can't be racism against white people" stuff is an affirmation I do completely agree with, namely that there is *one* determinate way that the world is, or that our society is, and is a situation that emerges out of a long history of devastating oppression against PoC (and women), and that the fact that that is our history and that our situation is this one particular way means that actions that appear to perpetuate that entire history and or even lay claim to some degree of right to it are of an entirely different kind than just the simple isolated notion of people being jerks to you because you're ostensibly not "one of them" (whether this is determined by skin color, or by everyday dress, or some other cultural marker). I think this notion is really really important, and in that sense I absolutely agree that this thing -- this terrible thing that comes with the whole vast avalanche of the countless instances in which history has done you and your family and your people wrong and rendered you totally, intolerably powerless -- is not something that can happen to white people in society, because that is just not what happened. Furthermore, to have white people laying claim to a certain kind of complaint, a certain kind of hurt that they just couldn't possibly actually experience because that's just not how things are at this point in history -- well, it is at least understandable to me if people feel like that is condescending and adds insult to injury, if a white guy who can't get a job in Detroit thinks he has just as much reason to complain.

I don't know. It's hard to explain and describe. I say this as a white girl who grew up in New Orleans, for what that's worth.

[info]flamingjune07

August 26 2009, 00:52:25 UTC 2 years ago

Or, here -- when a white guy gets discriminated against for anything because he's white, yes, that is prejudice based on his race. If you want to define racism simply as "any prejudice based on perceived race" then sure, it's racism. But if that's racism, and you don't have some whole other discourse about what goes on when it takes place in that oppressive historical/social context mentioned above (and it does take place in that context), then you're not only being ignorant, you're choosing a definition of "racism" that happens to benefit white people while playing down the legitimate grievances of, or even the value of understanding, PoC.

[info]flamingjune07

August 26 2009, 00:53:21 UTC 2 years ago

P.P.S. Not a part of any kind of "anti-racist crowd" or whatever, just a thinking person here.

[info]pure_doxyk

August 26 2009, 15:06:00 UTC 2 years ago

Good points; I appreciate them and thank you. You're totally right, of course, that in The Society We Actually Live In, there's a whole history of racism against PoCs going back hundreds and hundreds of years, which it simply is not possible for a white person to experience or directly understand the other side of. There is no substitute for actually BEING a member of the oppressed class.

But what is anti-racism about? Is it about corroborating the anger and trauma of the oppressed class, or is it about stopping and preventing harmful racism?

If it's about corroboration, then whites have no place in it. We CAN'T have a place in it, or not much of one anyway; we can be sympathetic but not meaningfully empathetic, and other than apologizing and allowing meaningful redress in the name of balance-going-forward, we've got nothing helpful to contribute.

But EVERYONE has something to contribute to ending racism, and in order to end racism we need to stop using racial prejudice to define who can be a victim. Maybe there is a certain kind of victimhood that includes being a PoC, which whites can't experience. That doesn't mean whites can't be hurt by racism, any more than the fact that a man doesn't have the whole history of female oppression under his skin means that he isn't hurt by being raped.

It's like war: If you realize that you're on the wrong side (as many whites have), you may defect and go fight for the other side, but that does nothing to stop the fighting. Being pro-PoC or anti-white is not the same as being anti-racist, and I want to hold anti-racists to their claim. If you want to stop the war, you must make peace, not only with the side that's "right", but also with the "bad guys". Excluding whites by minimizing or throwing out what they do know of racism, and deliberately defining racism so that every white person's role as perpetrators (and only perpetrators) is guaranteed by their skin-color, ensures that there will never be an end to the actual racism; just a pendulum-swing from one side to the other. And while I appreciate that the oppressed want their day, I'm not okay with them having it at the cost of more human suffering, of any color. Equality? Ending racism? Hell yes. Demonizing whites and deepening the racial divide with more bitterness and exclusion? Um, no.

[info]flamingjune07

August 26 2009, 18:15:37 UTC 2 years ago

But what is anti-racism about? Is it about corroborating the anger and trauma of the oppressed class, or is it about stopping and preventing harmful racism?


I don't think either of those can or should exist, at least not genuinely, without the other.


I have a lot of sympathy for what you're saying in general about anti-white backlash not being helpful, and in a general sense I agree that of course divisiveness and fighting generally leads to more fighting which generally leads to more fighting and the whole thing becomes (and has become) this incredibly difficult mire, but I do think there are some important things you might be missing. Since we're advocating for setting aside differences and making genuine attempts at mutual understanding here, I'd like to ask you to pause for a minute, sort of cleanse the palate of your mind --


-- and then take a look at this:

Excluding whites by minimizing or throwing out what they do know of racism, and deliberately defining racism so that every white person's role as perpetrators (and only perpetrators) is guaranteed by their skin-color, ensures that there will never be an end to the actual racism

I think there's a problem here. On the one hand, it does seem like ivory tower theory types might just sit up there apart from the world and define things however they like, while perhaps failing to conceive of the full effects of their (re)definitions. That, I get. However, I think there are a lot of people out there who are doing some really hard, really genuine work trying just to orient themselves to the world, what their place in it is and how they should understand their relations to others and, in a very general sense, how to be a good person in this day and age -- I think that there are a lot of people coming from that sort of background who do think that there's a lot of substance to discussions about "institutional racism" or whatever else it is you want to call That Thing. These people (myself included), who are primarily just observant and caring people in the world, aren't just positing this definition of "racism" for the sake of discussion, or for the sake of sounding insightful or selling a few books or whatever -- this is the way it is, in a very real sense. Like, this is actually true.

Okay. So, in all seriousness, set aside your own points (which I do sympathize with) for a moment, and take this in -- If somebody truly, honestly believes that this is how it is, that there is a way that the world is and that way truly is terribly unjust and oppressive to themselves and their families and the people they love, and it has been so for hundreds of years and their own mistreatments are just tiny little drops in an inconceivably huge bucket of tragic pain and suffering older than the very country they live in -- if this is what you truly believe, doesn't it make sense that hearing "Why are you deliberately redefining things in a way that shortchanges white people?" might be kind of infuriating?

I mean, I know I'm really playing to emotions here, which I suppose some might find objectionable or not "rigorous" or whatever, but I really do think that there is a legitimate point of view here that is overlooked all too often, and that it provides a lot of insight into what's going on in the sort of situation you're talking about and deserves some deep consideration.

[info]pure_doxyk

August 26 2009, 19:09:16 UTC 2 years ago

Okay, awesome, very good stuff. You're right that, palate cleansed, my wording there could sound very frustrating to someone who wanted the Isness of institutional racism to receive more attention (and why shouldn't it?), and who was perhaps tired of everybody pointing out the dumb little racist events without giving the Big Picture its due.

But aren't there much, much better ways to draw attention to the Big Picture problem, than by trying to wrest away the little understanding of racism and its negative effects that people have finally come to?

I still think it was/is a bad idea to try to "redefine racism" as meaning the institutional variety *only*, as a means to address this, for all the reasons I said. Inventing a new term (like oh, say, "institutional racism" or something) would have brought the problem forward too, and done it without excluding people who are already "anti-racism" in the colloquial sense, and would have probably happily followed that argument right into being "anti-institutional-racism" -- until you told them that racism didn't include anything they've ever seen on the streets, or had happen to them, or to anybody they know unless it was perpetrated by a white-run institution.

I know I'm nitpicking words now. But if you're going to start or participate in any movement that claims the moral high-ground, like anti-racism does, I think you need to work extra hard to keep your own sheets clean. Even the *perception* of racist divisiveness in the anti-racism movement is deadly, just as the mere whiff of "female superiority" on the gender-equality movement taints it, and not just in the public's view. I think it's possible, and smarter, to talk about institutional racism, and the history and prevalence of racism against PoC's, without excluding or illegitimizing the wrongness of other kinds of racism.

But ironically, because of How It Is, I actually *can't* have an opinion that most anti-racists would see as valid. And maybe that's part of my gripe that I was too proud to get into -- I don't like being told that no matter how hard I think or how clearly I reason or how empathetic I'm capable of being, my thoughts are ineffective and to some extent irrelevant...because I'm white. Yes, I understand that waaay more blacks than whites have had to deal with that exact same thing, often in worse ways, and for generations. I *don't* understand why that makes it okay for it to happen to me...or to anybody else, regardless of their race.

Or maybe I'm just frustrated because I thought I had racism figured out forever ago, but anti-racists continually irritate me by refusing to accept my "all racism is unjust" formulation of things. I want a principle that can be printed in formal logic, darnit! ;)

[info]flamingjune07

August 26 2009, 19:41:49 UTC 2 years ago

(part 1 -- stupid character limit)

I want a principle that can be printed in formal logic, darnit! ;)


Haha -- well, I and several much smarter people might have some disheartening news for you then... ;)


But anyway -- I think I see what you're getting at, and yeah, I agree, it is stupid to decry people for complaining about legitimately unjust situations just because those situations aren't The Most Unjust or something, or because they don't quite fall under the particular hyperfocus that "the movement" has at the moment or some such. It's rough, though -- of course all these discussions about racism and about anti-racism and about "theory" and about particular real human interactions and so forth themselves also go on in the context I'm talking about, and so you're not just talking about what you're talking about but also the discussion itself is a certain action within those circumstances. So yes, it is right and good, in a general sense, to call out prejudice wherever it occurs, no matter who it happens to or who is perpetrating it. On the other hand, if you enter into a discussion that is already happening about racism against blacks in the U.S. (which comes along with the whole history and "institutional" aspect, whether you're talking about the racist policies of a literal institution or something shitty that was said to one black guy on the street the other day) and say something like "The same thing happened to my white uncle in Detroit" you're not really just calling out prejudice, you're displaying either an ignorance or active dismissal of the uniqueness of the situation of blacks in the U.S., and you're also, in the immediate, derailing the conversation that is going on.

I mean, consider, for instance, what happens in feminist circles when someone comes in and says something like "It sucks for men when women falsely accuse them of rape." I mean, false accusations of rape are indeed made, and it does indeed suck, right? But complaining about false accusations of rape in that context doesn't have the effect of actually helping anything about the situation (to put it lightly). I don't mean this to be a perfect analogy or anything, but maybe you see what I'm getting at here?

[info]flamingjune07

August 26 2009, 19:42:01 UTC 2 years ago

(part 2)


ANYWAY. Okay. So yes, I do think that there are some people out there, on "both sides," as it were, who think that one has to choose between talking about individual on-the-street instances of racial prejudice, and talking about the broader social order. I don't think that this is true, and in fact, I think that it doesn't make much sense to talk about either without the other -- because, on the one hand, the isolated incidents can only be understood in their proper social context (just like any other social activity), and on the other, the "theory" doesn't have any real content, or meaning, unless you find some way to anchor it in what's actually going on among people on the street. So, while I sympathize to a certain extent with those who would ask you to limit the scope of what you believe you can even say (obviously neither you nor I can speak directly about the actual experience of being black in the U.S., for instance), I also do think that the "theory" should be answerable to what your experiences are, even and particularly as a white person in whatever your particular circumstances are.

That said, when trying to reconcile those two things -- the theory and your individual experience -- we should proceed here as we would anywhere else where we're trying to reconcile theory and actuality; namely, if it doesn't look like they match up, we should withhold judgment as to whether the problem is in the theory or in our perceptions of our own circumstances, and try our best to give both an honest representation while we try to hunt down what the mismatch might be coming from. Sometimes it will be a problem with the theory, and sometimes it will be something we hadn't realized about what we're experiencing (as weird as that is to think about, on a certain level), and a lot of the time we won't really Figure It Out, or at least not to full satisfaction. This is okay, the important thing is to just keep trying and always be willing to revise your view when new details come to light.

It's a much less comfortable way to be than having Things Figured Out, for sure, but I think ultimately more enlightening (and fulfilling, at least for intellectual masochists like myself, heh).

[info]pure_doxyk

August 27 2009, 13:33:46 UTC 2 years ago

Re: (part 2)

on the one hand, the isolated incidents can only be understood in their proper social context (just like any other social activity), and on the other, the "theory" doesn't have any real content, or meaning, unless you find some way to anchor it in what's actually going on among people on the street.

...Yup, that's an awesome statement of the conflict; thank you.

Also, this:

the important thing is to just keep trying and always be willing to revise your view when new details come to light.

...I'm totally in favor of, and I want to emphasize that the "theorists" -- the anti-racist groups and academia in this case -- really REALLY need to keep that advice in mind. It's very easy to write theories and then claim that they're *more* valuable because they're old, and thus shouldn't be changed. In fact I think that argument has been made at least once during this very discussion, as a reason why the "sociological definition" of racism should be allowed to stand.

On my view, every movement needs a principle it can hang its rhetoric on and orbit its activities around. You have to be ABOUT something, yeah? Maybe it was naive of me to assume that the anti-racist movement's principle was "racism is bad", in the widest and most inclusive sense. Maybe their principle is actually something more like "the white power-structure is bad". That would be fine, but it would mean that I couldn't fully support them (and it would irritate me that they call themselves "anti-racists", admittedly). I agree that the white power-structure is bad; but I don't think that just any other power structure would be better, or that the whiteness is THE THING wrong with the one we've got. I think racism is bad, and I think racist institutions are bad and racist actions by individuals are bad, and I want to live in a color-blind world, where people live and work and marry and get along regardless of racial background. That puts *some* of my goals in line with that of the anti-racist movement's, but not all of them if that group's goals revolve exclusively around ending white racism against PoC, while excusing or ignoring any racism that doesn't fit their main category.

Of course, that's all in principle, all in theory. In reality, white racism against PoC is 90+% of what needs to be addressed in order to make ours a less racist society (just like ending male sexism against women is most of what needs to be worked on in order to make a less sexist society). I totally understand and agree with the reality of that. What I can't get behind is the extension of that reality-based fact into a theory that excuses acts of hatred and prejudice by anyone simply because they happen to be a certain race or gender.

Thanks!!

[info]pure_doxyk

2 years ago

[info]drkaos

August 26 2009, 00:47:52 UTC 2 years ago

Okay, I'm gonna admit I didn't read all your post. TOO LONG. But I'm still going to chime in and agree with what I did read for the most part. I've been utterly sickened by the anti-racist crowd for a while. When it's okay for a PoC to say "every time I go out of the house I see white people and it makes me sick and I have to come home and cry because those goddamn whites are out there!" it makes me furious (get more angry:this person was in this country on a international open hand program fully paid scholarship and all she did was cut class to go apeshit on whitey / the USA at meetings and protests).

I want a color blind society and I'm all for exposing where it isn't color blind and fixing that. But I'm sure as hell not up for denial that racism cuts both ways, sociological definitions aside. Even using the sociological definition, when you are in a classroom and told you deserve nothing that you have and your experiences are not relevant or important because of the color of your skin, that classroom and the school that fosters it is an institution which creates racism by the very definition that the anti-racist people use. But if you're a white heterosexual male, you are the object of complete and total derision.

I do want to distribute the power, the wealth and the opportunity, but I damn well don't want to destroy anyone in the process or remove their voice from the process. Sociological change is more of an evolutionary process and extremist groups like the anti-racists aren't going to be effective in any way shape or form if they marginalize themselves in this way.

[info]drkaos

August 26 2009, 02:57:43 UTC 2 years ago Edited:  August 26 2009, 03:08:42 UTC

Add to that the fact that the PC/anti-racist crowd won't even entertain your voice in an online forum until you identify yourself by race, religion, gender, sexual orientation, etc. When another person's perception of your context is necessary for them to judge you and accept or disregard what you say, then you have defeated your own goal of eliminating racism by making all these issues paramount again.

Example: After a long conversation about how every good thing that has ever happened to me and everything I own is undeserved and unearned due to my race, and a bitter debate over whether or not "white people" have ever experienced any significant form of oppression, she countered my arguments by sending me a link to a website hosting a paper that debunked anti-Irish racism. According to this site the "no dogs, no blacks, no Irish" policies and the Great Famine were fallacies created by immigrants to engender sympathy. She was a fan of this website, which only helped to reinforce her bigotry against the various peoples she lumps into the category of "white"; the site also denied the holocaust, the extermination of slavs and gypsies by the Germans and Russians, etc. This perfectly illustrated that the PC / anti-racism movement was so far to the left that it was far right; the website was a white power racist site.

Long story short: the anti-racism movement marginalizes itself and makes itself irrelevant by embracing an indefensible radical fringe position and ostracizing the voices, experiences, and opinions of anyone who is not the right race.

[info]pure_doxyk

August 26 2009, 13:14:53 UTC 2 years ago

It was stupid long, wasn't it? But it was enough work to write that I didn't feel like also editing it into manageability.

I'm generally sympathetic to anti-racists: their stated goals are admirable, and it is incredibly difficult to end a war by refusing to fight it, which is what "the end of racism" would in fact look like. Most people get quickly caught up in the much easier "fight for the other side!" mentality, and so they just flip from being pro-white to anti-white and call that an answer...which I don't. And it does ring as hypocritical to me that people can claim to be "against racism" when they're only, in fact, against some kinds of racism, and perfectly willing to condone others.

Thanks!

[info]a_priori

August 26 2009, 02:00:15 UTC 2 years ago

I wonder if the concerns you raise should make us worry about the initial move (which you apparently accept) to define racism as 'prejudice + power'.

As proponents of that definition note, it departs from colloquial usage. Any time theorists wish to stipulatively redefine a term in a way that departs from the ordinary use, they ought to have a strong reason for doing so. Such stipulative redefinitions risk generating theories that will sound at least counterintuitive and at worst ludicrously irrelevant to the real world.

These folks claim to have such a reason: the really interesting phenomenon occurs only at a political (or sociological) level, via institutional power. Hence, they stipulatively redefine 'racism' to encompass only prejudice enacted in the context of such power. The argument for doing this is spelled out in their point H above.

That's all well and good for theorists invoking stipulative definitions. But those of us outside that particular set of theories can quite reasonably say, "look, there's this other interesting and important phenomenon that is not captured within your stipulated definition". That phenomenon is the individual instance of prejudiced action or treatment, enacted by particular people and directed at particular people. Actions of that sort would naturally be called 'racist' under the colloquial use of that term. Maybe (per the argument in point H) prejudice accompanied by institutional power is a more "important" subject of inquiry, but this doesn't mean that individual instances of prejudiced action are not also important, and that they are not also wrong. Given that prior to the stipulative redefinition we had a term that referred colloquially to such instances, and after the stipulative redefinition we no longer have such a term, it's a bit unreasonable for the theorists to resent our resisting the stipulative redefinition.

This is particularly troublesome because it's quite plausible to think that the term 'racism' continues to bear an emotional charge acquired from its colloquial use (applying to individual acts) even when stipulatively restricted to institutional expressions of power. Basically, the stipulatively redefined term gets to keep on working its rhetorical power, while the theorists deny access to the semantic reference from which that power originated. This, understandably, is frustrating.

All of which adds up to the following: suppose I witness an instance of enacted prejudice on the basis of race. In condemnation, I apply the term 'racist' to the instance. If the theorist says to me, "no, you're using that term incorrectly; it only applies in cases where the prejudice is embedded in institutional power", then I'm entitled to say in response "that's not how I use the term. Using it that way might serve your projects, but it isn't most felicitous to my project - of condemning individual instances of a behavior - and you've given me little reason to apply your abstract theoretical standards to my real practical deliberation". I'm not thereby making a mistake; I'm simply using the term in a different sense than is the theorist. And if the theorist genuinely wants to convince me that the individual act I aim to condemn is not actually (as) worthy of condemnation (as some other act, perhaps one embedded in institutional power), it will take more than a stipulative redefinition.

[info]flamingjune07

August 26 2009, 05:26:53 UTC 2 years ago

What if the discussion of "institutional power" and such is not posited as merely a stipulative redefinition, but as a description and explanation of some of the more subtle features of the immediate phenomenon? Or, in other words, what if it's not just that the interesting stuff happens at an institutional level, but that it's necessary to view a social act (whatever it is that is being called "racism") within and relative to a broader social context (history, institutional power, etc) in order to better understand that act, and how we should react to it (your "real practical deliberation)?

[info]pure_doxyk

August 26 2009, 15:59:10 UTC 2 years ago

I had a great discussion with my husband about this exact thing last night. He makes a rather bold claim that this "sociological usage" has the effect of shielding people from being accused of racism, since under that definition, only an institution or a society (never a person) can be racist. Thus, oddly and creepily, the definition that comes from the "Ivory" tower is one that makes it incredibly easy for bankers, politicians, journalists, teachers, etc. to excuse their own actions as "by definition not racist" -- or if they are racist, as the fault of the institution as a whole and not the individual.

I totally agree with him and with a_priori that anyone who wants to redefine a term that already has a colloquial usage had better be able to show a compelling reason for it. While I'm willing to talk to the anti-racist "camp" in their terms when I write things like this, I don't actually think they have a compelling reason, and moreover I'm worried that they might have a reason more like my husband suspects.

Another good point: Why can't "racism" be the colloquial definition and something else, like "systemic racism" or "institutional racism" be the "sociological" definition? Why is it so important to co-opt that specific term away from the person-level, and in so doing to exclude all cases of racism against whites? It does make one remember that anti-racism, such as it is, definitely started out more about anti-white-ism.

That mess aside, though, I think the "prejudice + power" people can keep their definition SO LONG AS they're willing to grant that the power to kick a kid out of school counts, as does the power to get your friends together and beat someone into the hospital. If we keep a real-world definition of "power" involved, then "racism" becomes what it should be: Something people do to people, and shouldn't. That definition *includes* institutional racism, which can certainly be a subset and a field of study all its own, but doesn't exclude the individual kind either.

Thanks to both of you for the awesome comments!

[info]flamingjune07

August 26 2009, 17:55:57 UTC 2 years ago

He makes a rather bold claim that this "sociological usage" has the effect of shielding people from being accused of racism, since under that definition, only an institution or a society (never a person) can be racist.

Just to be clear, this is not at all what I mean -- I think that "racism" as an immediate phenomenon is something that absolutely does manifest in individual interactions, and thus a person is definitely capable of "being racist" at one time or another, or having a generally racist worldview or attitude, and so forth. I just think that there are some pretty compelling reasons to take the wider societal context into account in order to understand what's going on with these actions and attitudes (and thus know what to do with/about them). I know it's tempting, at the very least because it's a lot "cleaner," to focus only on the isolated individual or only on the broad societal theory, but I don't think either of those narratives make any sense without actively taking each other into account.

[info]pure_doxyk

August 26 2009, 19:16:21 UTC 2 years ago

I think I agree totally with you there, though that last sentence is a big statement....could any one person ever really take both of those into account? I think it's a good goal to have, but I also don't think it should get in the way of calling out and ending racist practices -- by people *and* by institutions -- when we see them.

[info]flamingjune07

August 26 2009, 19:43:42 UTC 2 years ago

could any one person ever really take both of those into account?

Several pretty awesome philosophers and also I myself would say no, but our inability to be omniscient doesn't seem to stop us from trying to know stuff ;)

[info]pure_doxyk

August 27 2009, 13:34:46 UTC 2 years ago

Hmph. Maybe YOU'RE unable to be omniscient; I'm still trying.

;)

[info]sanguinity

August 26 2009, 17:28:39 UTC 2 years ago

Part 1 - White Supremacy and Backlash

Re the case of a white kid growing up in Detroit and finding his entire local society arrayed against him, including all the local institutions: yeah, that sucks hard, and it leaves nasty, lifelong scars. However, the major reason that we discuss that as a structurally different case from a black kid getting comparable maltreatment in white-run local-level institutions is because the structural causes are different: anti-white bigotry from POC, however abusive or locally entrenched, is typically a backlash against the structural racism that the POC community is experiencing.

You speak of Detroit being affected by systemic white-supremacist racism as if it's a minor, incidental effect, but isn't it actually a pretty big deal? The economic shambles Detroit finds itself in has a fair amount to do with who is considered worthy of risking capital on, let alone at what price. It has to do with the nation deciding to gut social welfare nets (and to keep them so gutted) when the courts insisted that the nets be available to people of color. It has to do with a "justice" system that penalizes black drug use with far more severity and comprehensiveness than white drug use, and which does so even when the local cops and judges are black. (Or has Detroit adopted a different body of law, a different bar association, a different policing philosophy, and a different prison system than its municipal neighbors?) White institutionalized racism has a HUGE effect on the residents of Detroit, and the black residents know it. And no, up-and-leaving will not make any of this better for them -- white supremacy is threaded all through this country, everywhere.

I'd like to make it clear, however, that saying this is an anti-white-supremacy backlash is in no way saying that it's "okay" for black Detroiters to make a white kid's life living hell. It's just to say that if you could solve the problem of white institutionalized racism on Detroit, you'd go a long way toward protecting the white kid, too.

You brought up the case of rape of males as a parallel: if you do some digging about why and how men get raped in this society, you find that rape of men is an outgrowth of the patriarchy, and is an outgrowth the patriarchy's misogyny, however counter-intuitive that may seem. That is the reason why it's a derailment to say "but men get raped, too" in discussions of how misogyny fuels rape culture. It isn't necessarily a derailment to say "and men get raped, too," although if you do too much of that, you're gonna get legitimate criticism for making your discussion of misogyny be all about the harm to men. Again.

Rape of men isn't really the best parallel to what you're discussing here, however: a better analogy would be the way young boys are sometimes treated on "womyn's land", either women's music festivals or lesbian separatist compounds. That sometimes gets trotted out by patriarchy-defenders under the rubric "women can be sexist and evil, too!" However, feminism and womanism isn't about whether people as individuals are sexist and evil, it's about the ways that the patriarchy twists and shapes both individuals and institutions, and it twists "womyn's land" just as effectively as it twists other pieces of society. Similarly, so has Detroit been twisted badly by white supremacy, as badly as anywhere else has.

[info]sanguinity

August 26 2009, 17:33:56 UTC 2 years ago

Part 2 - Who Should Best Be Doing What

Which brings us to the next question: what should an anti-racist do about white kids being picked on in Detroit? It depends on whether you're white or not.

If you'd permit me to go back to the womyn's land example, how well would male criticism, even criticism from feminist males, be received by the caretakers of womyn's land? Would it be heard? Respected? In a community that is actively backlashing against men? No, the criticism must come from other women if it's going to be heard or acted upon. The criticism has gotta come from people who intimately understand that this is a backlash, that the backlash is rooted in very real pain and distress plus some legitimate real-world practicalities. It's gotta come from people who can express genuine "hey, I've been there, too, but however much it may look like it when we're in the thick of it, it is not the individual males who are evil, so you're venting your anger and pain in the wrong places; similarly, while there are some legitimate reasons to keep men off the land, there are better and worse ways of doing that, and kids are structurally different enough of a case that you shouldn't even be using the same analysis, let alone remedies." That criticism, criticism from other women, will eventually get somewhere (and so it has with many, but not all, instances of womyn's land), but criticism from men is just going to make the defensive reactions worse. The best support that men can provide in that situation is to be extremely judicious about what they say, when they say it, and to whom they say it.

And so it is in anti-racist circles. Anti-racism as a whole frames the situation in Detroit as being an anti-white-supremacy backlash, and considers it to be fueled by the system of white supremacy just as surely as overtly anti-black racism is. Some of it is "merely" striking out in pain and anger; some of it is self-protective tactical actions against the threats of, say, gentrification. However, there's a necessary split within anti-racist circles with respect to who talks about that backlash, and how. White anti-racists mostly refrain from criticizing anti-white backlashes: seriously, we do not have a moral high ground to be speaking from here, most of us don't have the street cred to be heard, anyway, and our words are waaaaaay too easily co-opted by white supremacy. When we talk about it, we should be talking about it in the terms I'm doing here: white supremacy is the root cause of that backlash and if you seriously care about that white kid in Detroit, the best thing you and I can do is to lift the system of white supremacy off of Detroit. Black anti-racists, on the other hand, do criticize the anti-white backlash. However, they tend not to do it in a public denouncement sort of way, but in a within-community "look, I know where you're coming from, but that kid is the wrong target" sort of way. I would say that if you're not hearing black anti-racists challenging anti-white backlash, and especially if you're not hearing them challenge the anti-white backlash against kids, you're not listening to enough black anti-racists. Also, you're only catching the public-broadcast messages.

[info]pure_doxyk

August 26 2009, 18:46:10 UTC 2 years ago

Re: Part 2 - Who Should Best Be Doing What

I was looking forward to your replies; thanks for making them and taking the time to make them good.

Regarding Detroit and how it got there and how the white power-structure affects it: Absolutely true. Absolutely meaningless to the kids on the ground (or all colors) who suffer for it, but absolutely true, and certainly that must be addressed in any attempt to rehabilitate Detroit as a city. However, to say that denying the racist nature of the behavior of many blacks in Detroit exacerbates the harm incurred by the victims of it is an understatement. Is Detroit-the-city helped by refraining from pointing out when its citizens are resorting to racist acts instead of more usefully addressing their city's problems? (And there's plenty of use they could do...anti-white rhetoric has gotten a lot of superbly corrupt officials voted in and kept in, and they--many of them black--have contributed easily as much as anybody to the city's current financial and segregationist woes.) Or are we saying that the whole city is filled with blacks who are too fragile, or too stupid, to be told that it's wrong for them to discriminate just as it's wrong for others?

Here's my problem, condensed down as far as I can get it. If the message of anti-racist groups isn't that "racism and racist acts (by anyone, against anyone) are wrong", then they have no legitimacy in my view, or, I think, the views of most people-on-the-ground. Backlash can certainly help explain why some people act the way they do, just like fear and misinformation can explain why some other people act they way THEY do. All racist behavior has a cause. But none of it has an excuse.

If racism (the colloquial and the sociological definitions thereof) is wrong, then people MUST be allowed and encouraged to spot it where it happens and to call it out. When anti-racist groups encourage people to exclude from this calling-out the personal cases of racist behavior that they see every day, to blame institutions rather than (instead of "in addition to") individuals who are clearly being racist, and to "not count" any cases of racist behavior against whites, they lose the support of pretty much everyone who's not a sociologist or an angry PoC. If fairness is your eventual goal, then you can't excuse some racism (because presumably you see "backlash" as a more legitimate reason for being racist than "ignorance" or "fear" or "I was raised this way", etc.) and expect people to see your cause as legitimately anti-racist.

In order for racism to end, there need to be changes in the institutional structure (where understanding and speaking to causes like backlash is very helpful), AND changes on the ground (where differentiating the harm of racism by race is counterintuitive and breeds even more division and resentment). The more I read, the less impressed I get with anti-racist groups' ("as a whole", insofar as that's possible) attempts to control public perception and discussion as if it was one big board-meeting. Changing the definition of "racism", which already had an accepted colloquial usage that people were just getting comfortable with, specifically to exclude a) the kinds of racism that are easiest for "uneducated" whites to recognize and b) any and all racism against whites in North America, no matter what the extant circumstances, strikes me as absolutely stupid, if your goal is to keep people interested in and passionate about ending racism in our society. The "sociological definition of racism" is an important tool for sociology-level discussions, but in the real world it shuts people out, frustrates them and makes them feel stupid for trying to speak out against racism. I don't see how that's at all a good plan.

[info]sanguinity

August 29 2009, 17:48:14 UTC 2 years ago

Re: Part 2 - Who Should Best Be Doing What

:: Is Detroit-the-city helped by refraining from pointing out when its citizens are resorting to racist acts instead of more usefully addressing their city's problems? ::

No, I'm saying that Detroit-the-city is helped best when white anti-racists don't add fuel to the fire, but instead trust black anti-racists to deal with the problems of Detroit's leadership. This is essentially the same position that I had on the prop-8 backlash, except without the exasperated profanity: strategic division of labor so as to leverage existing trust and ties, and cultivating the discipline to not frack up what your compatriots are trying to accomplish.

:: Or are we saying that the whole city is filled with blacks who are too fragile, or too stupid, to be told that it's wrong for them to discriminate just as it's wrong for others? ::

Is that really what you got from what I wrote?

No, my position is that the speaker's context matters. White people don't magically stop being white when they talk, even if they're saying the exact same words that black people might say; consequently, white people's words are heard and used differently than the same words coming from black speakers. Whether it's right or wrong that the speaker's context matters is pretty much irrelevant: the context does matter, and does change the message.

And by the way, I'm not just considering how black people in Detroit hear white-spoken criticisms of Detroit institutions; I'm also considering how white people outside of Detroit hear and use those white-spoken criticisms. White anti-racists have had an excellent track record of letting their words and actions be co-opted by white supremacy. Want to be useful as a white person? Focus on putting pressure on white power structures, and cultivate the discipline to not inadvertently give white power structures yet another excuse to make things worse in Detroit.

:: If fairness is your eventual goal, then you can't excuse some racism... ::

I don't. Reserving the use of the word "racism" for particular situations does not mean that one is fine with, or excuses, other situations. If you re-read what I said above, I never excused backlash: I said it was structurally different, and that one needs to respond to it differently.

In general, white people are extremely attached to using the word "racism" to criticize bigotry among POC -- you can criticize bigoted institutions or actions all day long, and they'll still obsess that you didn't use the word "racism" when you did it. That's because among white people, "racism" has been co-opted into a word that is primarily used to rank white people's goodness/badness: whether or not you criticize bigoted institutions turns out to be nearly irrelevant in these conversations; what's important is whether or not you put the magical BAD PEOPLE LABEL on those poc over there. By insisting on using the power + prejudice definition, anti-racists are attempting to rejigger the value system: the issue is not about who the bad people are (which, not incidentally, eventually makes it easier for white people to acknowledge how they fit into and benefit from a racist system); it's about how the power systems lie and what harm they're causing.

:: where differentiating the harm of racism by race is counterintuitive ::

Yes, precisely. It's counter-intuitive because white people's intuition about how the majority of racial harm is perpetrated is generally borked. By refusing to use the word in accordance with people's false intuitions, you can force those assumptions into the conversation, where they can be discussed and dismantled.

:: and breeds even more division and resentment ::

I'm sympathetic to not wanting to breed more division and resentment, but I've yet to see a method whereby white people eventually get the pervasiveness of the power structures that doesn't, at least initially, pass through "even more division and resentment."

[info]tamago23

September 8 2009, 15:36:16 UTC 2 years ago

I'm the writer of the linked Racism 101 post - I came across a link to this post at the bottom of the WDS post, and read all of this post (and the comments as well) with interest. The fact is, I wouldn't know *what* to call your example of the kids in Detroit, because it does in some ways fit the markers of institutionalized racism. And children are a special case because *some* of the more obvious aspects of white privilege don't apply to them - for example, they can't just pack up and move away, they're trapped in that situation. From that perspective, it's somewhat analogous to a PoC who can't escape the entrenched power system no matter where they go in North America or other areas. But the fact is also that that white child will grow up at some point and they can go to an area that isn't as unfriendly; a PoC doesn't have that option no matter how old they get. It's time-limited for that white child. (And I do understand that the psychological scars stick around; I still deal with trauma from my youth, and I know how haunting it can be. But at least at some point they have the option to escape from *ongoing* mistreatment.)

One thing that I will point out is that this guide is written for people who are expressing interest in racism, which tends to lead logically into the anti-racism movement (which is where most people who are examining racism end up). So this guide is written specifically to ease their adjustment into those circles (which is why I say things like "the definition you're likely to encounter in anti-racist circles is..." and that sort of thing). I don't believe that the sociological definition of racism is the be-all and end-all of racism, which is why I specify that it's the sociological definition (rather than simply claiming it as *the* definition of racism). But since it's what most of the people reading that guide are going to encounter, it's prudent to make sure they understand how it's used and in what contexts.

I wish I could address all issues within that guide, but it's teal-deer enough as it is, and there's a whole lot of information there for people to take in. I'm already seriously considering a follow-up "Guide to Racism 201" though, which would be able to take things such as the issues you raised in this post into account and discuss them more in-depth. (I'd also love to cover topics such as "borrowed white privilege", the global hierarchy of race, etc.)

Thanks for the post and thoughts - I'm still trying to figure out what all this means myself, and reading posts like this open up new areas to consider, which is always a good thing. :)

(As a side note, the continually-updated version of my Racism 101 post is here - I'd love it if you could link to that one instead, since that way anybody finding this post later through your journal will be reading the version that gets updated rather than the fixed-in-time version on WDS.)

[info]pure_doxyk

September 16 2009, 14:49:42 UTC 2 years ago

Hi, Robin! Thanks for the comment, and I'm sorry it took me so long to reply. My friends and husband and I are still having really good conversations based on your post, and I really appreciate you writing it -- it IS a great introduction to the way things are in the anti-racist movement, irrespective of whether some of us might wish they were different.

Me, I'm a philosopher, and so it makes sense that the sociological definition and I would clash...I don't have a problem with it *as the sociological definition*, of course, but so far I'm still one of the ones arguing that I don't think it makes such a good definition-definition, and I still think the anti-racism movement's insistence on using it exclusively (where that insistence exists) is unfortunate. As a purely sociological tool, however, I could see how it would work just fine. And I appreciate your noting the difference.

I will update that link posthaste, and if you wrote a Racism 201 post (though perhaps they should be called "Anti-Racism 101" and "201"), I would be very interested to read it. Thanks again for all the work you put into this!

PD
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