No words describe my elation as well as I'd like, so here's a great picture I found recently!  ;)

Four a.m. was, in fact, no problem at all.  It's five now, and I've made (mostly-decaffeinated) coffee, washed up a bit, taken the trash out, done the catbox and gotten Cat's food and water in order in preparation for being out of town this weekend.  (Cat will still hair up / throw up all over the house while I'm gone, but this is the price of having cats.  ::sigh::)

Hours of kungfu and writing stretch before me before my errands, packing, or work even need the beginnings of consideration.  I may record a nice video for my parents and/or clean up my pile of desk paperwork while I'm at it, too.

Not only is my day nice and started by five a.m., but I was up at 12:45 last night talking to my brother.  ZOMG WOOT.

My eyes are a little tired from too much reading-of-screens, but this has been true all week and may not be directly adjustment-related.  Other than that, I feel quite proper; barely a yawn.  Awesomesauce.

NOTE:  I am on a boat (sailing) most of Memorial Day weekend and may not update for several days; don't panic.  My schedule will probably suffer a bit from the travel bits, but on the boat itself I should be able to keep it, since I'm on a rotating work detail and all.  ;)  Wish me luck!

Originally published at *Transcendental *Logic. You can comment here or there.

…But actually, right before my 1am core sleep on the evening of Day 3, and SO right before that I don't have time for much of an update; but I did want to give something before tomorrow morning.

Today, I should disclaimer, was an EPIC difficult day, by way of being the evening before a ZOMG EPIC difficult one tomorrow.  After that I get the hell out of dodge for a long weekend, and I'm not sure how well I'll be able to keep my schedule then, but I do plan to give it a serious try.

The last day-point-five went well.  Hockey made me sleep an extra two hours for my core (and not sleeping for the nap before it didn't help, I'm sure…but my evening naps were always the hardest to wind down for; I'm not surprised that I would have difficulty falling asleep for them while re-adjusting), but I woke up refreshed and made it through work fine…although work was nuts, and I didn't get my afternoon nap at ALL.  I did get my evening nap, though, and didn't find staying awake until now at all difficult.  We'll see how waking up at 4am feels!  

(Though the ZOMG EPICness of tomorrow may turn out to be a boon there; as soon as my eyes open, I bet I'll be thinking too hard to fall back to sleep.  Now there's something I don't think I thought of utilizing to help stay awake before!)

Originally published at *Transcendental *Logic. You can comment here or there.

Originally published at *Transcendental *Logic. You can comment here or there.

Day 1 again!

I decided to take today, since I had it, and give a shot at getting my sleep schedule back.  By "sleep schedule" I'm referring to the Everyman 3 / occasionally Everyman 4.5 hybrid that I slept on for seven years until things fell apart on me, which was realistically about six months ago (though it was more recently that I stopped trying to fix it and just gave up on schedules; see Hard Writings).  

Don't get me wrong, I'd LOVE to get Uberman back, but even I'm not crazy enough to think I can work it on my existing schedule/lifestyle.  That's a longer project for a later time, sadly.  Still one of my life's goals, though!

Anyway, here's the lowdown:

I slept from 11:30 – 4am, since I couldn't catch a nap yesterday.  Today I have taiji + 3 bike-rides (between 2 classes and home), but I should be home by 1 for my nap, and then I'm around this evening, so should have my naptimes OK.  Monday is hockey, which takes from about 7:30pm – 1am, but if I'm strict about it and take my evening nap at 7 and go right to bed when I get home, I can make it work I think.  (The question there is, Can I sleep just 3 hours after 1.5 hours of hardcore swimming?  And I guess we'll see!)

My schedule (the one I had for years, and find works for me pretty naturally now) looks like this:

~7am – morning nap

~1pm – afternoon nap

~7pm – evening nap

1am – 4am core nap (unless one of the daytime naps gets missed, in which case 11:30pm – 4am core nap)

I do expect some adjustment, since I've been off-schedule (off any schedule, really) for several months now; and furthermore, I don't expect I'll really be able to stick by this schedule every day for a while; my near-term future is pretty nuts-looking.  YES, that means I'm NOT TAKING MY OWN ADVICE about making sure that you can keep the schedule for 3-4 weeks when you first adjust — but remember, as I've said a million times, the rules are different for everybody, and how adjusted you are or have been makes a BIG difference in how it works for you.  I'm arguably a very special case, having been fully adjusted to this schedule for years, and that's definitely informing my decision to try it now, even knowing that it'll have to be imperfect for a little while (a few weeks, I suspect).  Even if I miss days here and there, if I prioritize my naps on other days, I'm pretty confident that I can make Everyman my default schedule again, due to how long I did it before.  

I might be wrong, of course!  But we'll see, now, shan't we?

(OMG using the word shan't is so fun!  Try it today if you haven't in a while!  ;)

Updates coming!

PD

Originally published at *Transcendental *Logic. You can comment here or there.

I love Slacktivist.  

Yes, it's a Christian blog, largely focused on considering issues pertinent to modern Christianity, quoting scriptures, and sometimes waxing outright apologetic.  

But it's also smart, and thoughtful, and not often afraid to consider opinions that may be contradictory to its own.  

This post is a great example of one of the things I like best about it.

Enjoy!

Originally published at *Transcendental *Logic. You can comment here or there.

[Click here for Parts One and Two.]

So, good stuff.  Here's what we've got so far:

• 1a. We recognize that self-esteem is really freaking important and that everyone needs it;
• 1b. We recognize that we have emotional needs, and that it's our responsibility to get them met;
• 2a. We've identified some things that we think are cool and are doing [or at least planning to do] them;
• 2b. We've identified some of our emotional needs and are prepared to treat them like K-Rails.

So, what's left?

In my mind, two things — 3a and 3b.  They're sort of the Advanced Course, if you will.

The first two things (1a & 1b) are purely about thinking; the second two (2a & 2b) require some action; and these last two are more abstract and require changes to our underlying mental-emotional operating systems.  That means ongoing contemplation, and working on fully admitting the truths we find and integrating that knowledge into thought and action.

But you all are smart, so you'll be fine with that.  ;)

What you might not be fine with is how big these two concepts are.  For that I apologize, but I don't know any other ways to put them (yet).  As has become normal for me, I find it easiest to borrow metaphors and phrasings from Eastern philosophy, but these ideas can be found in many places — wherever other people enlightened enough to know them, and smart enough to articulate them, have gone before us.  ::bows to those ppl::

The first one you may have heard me talk about once or twice before…

V.  Recognize the Primacy of Attention in Defining Your World.

Attention is everything.  I can't overstate that, and neither can anybody else, because it's quite possibly THE most fundamental truth of the self-aware human experience.  But what does it mean?

It means, in short, that your focus determines your reality.  A man who stares intently at the dirt has dirt-life; a woman who stares intently at the sky has a sky-life.  For most people, the focus of their attention is pulled around by whatever pokes them the most on a subconscious psychological level…two people may have very different experiences of the same situation, but we largely assume that this is just because of "who they are", not because they had any choice in it…and this is wrong.  Just flat wrong.  You can choose where your attention is, and by exercising this ability you can have a HUGE influence on the content and context of your life.

"Of course I can choose where my attention is," you're probably thinking; you do it all the time — you put it on this book, or that site, or that television; but when it comes to this emotion or that one, this pain or that pleasure, you probably often feel helpless to control it.  You're not, though; it's just about getting better at it and learning how.  There is one key trick to it, too, and that's recognizing when you can affect your attention…you can only change where it is right now.  You have NO control over where it was, or where it will be — and that may sound silly but it's desperately important, especially since when you look at where your attention is right now, you very often find that it's not here at all, but rather focused on the past or the future, where it can't have any effect whatsoever.  

Having your attention in the past or the future is akin to having left your most powerful weapon in your other pants.

Your attention, and therefore what kind of life you have, is determined by exactly one moment in time — the only one your attention can be moved in!  THIS ONE.  

So point 3a, Attention, leads very neatly into point 3b; and this makes sense, since they're incredibly closely related, and mastery of one cannot happen without master of the other.  3b, of course, being:

VI.  Recognize the Supremacy of the Present Moment over the Past and Future.

Life is made of moments:  A blurry bridge of them leading backwards, and a foggy bridge leading some distance forwards, and one crystal-sharp one that you're standing on.  But if you haven't noticed, all those moments that you're not standing in exist only in one or more squishy, fallible human brains — the farther away they are, the less certain; but even ten minutes away they're nothing a smart person would bet his life savings on.  Past and Future are made of pure mind-stuff, and it's neat that our minds have the ability to stretch a little ways in both temporal directions, but that stretching produces images — movies, recordings, fictions — not real things.  

(Please go read that last paragraph again.  I just realized that to give it the proper emphasis, I would have to type it all twice.  ;)

THIS moment, though, this one has the force of all Reality behind it.  All of the Past — the stuff we can remember and the stuff we can't, every molecule of it — is real and solid and manifest right now and nowhere else; and similarly, the entirety of what the Future can and will be is alive, now, here.  

Don't fuck with the Now:  Next to it, the Past and Future have as much hope as sock-puppets in a blitzkrieg.  ALL their power comes from their ability to make you focus on them instead of Now, to do things out of fear, regret, etc. instead of in response to what actually is.

To say that more clearly (as if anything could be clearer than socks and bombings, right?), Attention is the most powerful defining force in any human life, and attention can only be controlled in the present moment.  

You have control, in other words, of the most powerful thing in your life, right now.  But if you don't wield it right now, you can't wield it at all.  

And like all wonderfully simple truths, this one is a bitch to get the hang of.  It doesn't really work in your daily life (though it will give you awesome flashes of wonderfulness as soon as you start to really contemplate it) until it becomes one of the most basic, fundamental parts of your being — not your thinking; farther down than that.  The canvas upon which your thinking happens.  So how do you get it there?

(Get ready to want to smack me.  This next thing is part of the reason Zen teachers often went about armed, I think… ;)

It takes long, irritating work — in other words, that thing we call PRACTICE.  The practice is generally (but not always) difficult and unrewarding, and often daunting, especially as you just start to get the hang of it.

PRACTICE turning your attention to the best possible place for any given moment (which means practicing paying attention TO any given moment, which is harder than you think it'll be if you've never consistently tried it).  Get used to the feeling of full attention versus splintered attention (both can be useful if done on purpose).  Practice waking yourself up during any and every activity, and asking yourself where your attention is, and if that's where you think it should be.  Especially practice putting your attention fully on other people when you interact with them, and note the results.  When you're bored, practice moving your attention from place to place, inside and outside your body, onto different objects and scenery, and note the difference it makes to your experience of being alive.  

PRACTICE THIS, SERIOUSLY.  It is, in my ever-so-humble opinion, the single most important skill anyone can ever have.

And every time life gets difficult on you, turn your thoughts to attention as soon as you can:  See where it is, and what it's doing, and if possible, move it to somewhere better (if nothing good presents itself, move your attention to your breathing, which is always a good standby).  Get used to thinking of attention as the key ingredient in every situation, and give it the, well, attention it deserves.  And get used to taking attention away from the useless mental television of past and future, where it can't do you any good, and bringing it to the single slice of the present moment, where it's a vorpal sword.

And that's why, at the end of the day, Attention and the Present are key ingredients in real, lasting self-esteem:  

Being Advanced Shit, this also comes with a caveat:  You may have noticed, if you're cagey, that not all the other human beings work like this.  In fact a pretty darn small sliverchunk of them do; and as you get the hang of the primacy of Attention and it begins to affect how you see and interact with the world, you do, in fact, run the risk of 98+% of humanity possibly thinking you're a weirdo.

I can't make any apologies for this, nor offer fixes for it, because quite simply I think this is much better than the way most people go about their lives, and personally I will always take "better" over "widely-accepted", no question.  I can, however, say that when it comes to "people in general", I don't worry about convincing them that this is the way to do things — we all have to make our own choices, and it's not my place to say that this way is the best for everybody.  But it's sure the best that I've found, and I think those who live by it are empirical evidence for its awesomeness.

To finish up, here's why this abstract-seeming ubermeta stuff is so important to self-esteem, particularly:  The only cure for lies is truth.  The only answer to darkness is light.  For people whose demons are relatively benign or superficial, there may be other answers that work; but when your hatred is yourself and your demons are all about making you your own worst enemy, there IS no answer — no real, lasting, complete answer — short of the Absolute.  You need a reset.  You need to go all the way back to scratch and Find Yourself in the purest sense…and Attention and the Present Moment are the stones on that path, for certain.  They may not be obvious or easy to get ahold of, but what that's fundamental is, right?

Thank you again, Internet, for reading along as I get this stuff down on paper.  It's been really good for me to make it somewhat logical and de-entropied, and I'll probably clean it up even more later for easier consumption, which means EXTRA thank you to those who read it now!

~END~

Originally published at *Transcendental *Logic. You can comment here or there.

Who are you?  How do you want to live?  Do you want to settle down or see the world?  Raise kids or stay in college forever?  Write books or become a CEO or earn your place as a pillar of your community…?

If you find somebody who thinks you're The Specialest Favorite, how far will you change to suit their lifestyle so that you can live together Foreverish?  And how long do you figure that is?  What if they don't agree?

What if you change?  What if they change?  How much priority can you, or are you willing to, give to staying in the same place as someone else Foreverish?

All of that depends on who you are, of course, which means that it depends on really knowing who you are — without that, how can you answer any of those questions?

Knowing who you are depends on having your EYES OPEN about who you are.  And that means having self-esteem, because convincing yourself that you're awful is just as dishonest as convincing yourself that you're Hercules (and has none of the potential benefits of the latter, either).

If you got past thirty years old, and made a bunch of huge life-decisions, all while having really awful self-esteem, then it's safe to predict that you will probably find yourself holding a basket filled with some pretty amazing mistakes.  I'm writing this to confess that that's precisely what I did, and that in the last couple months a good chunk of them came due — as mistakes do — and knocked down quite a lot of the life I'd been building for the last seven years.

So things have been unstable and uncertain and emotionally really difficult lately.  My near-term future holds more of that plus loneliness, financial difficulty, and an intimidating daily workload that, to be frank, I can't at the moment see how I'm going to pull off.  I'm sure it'll work out somehow — things do, after all, and panicking never helps — but I feel like I have to be honest with the people who read my blog and send me emails (which I haven't been good about answering lately *at all*, sorry) looking for advice that I'm not exactly lifestyle guru material lately.  I am, in fact, mid-lesson on some really useful shit that I'm sure will turn into some great advice I can give to others once I've figured it through…but the figuring-through is a long and tricky process, and while I'm in the middle of it I'm hardly a good example to anyone.

My idea of a "sleep schedule" lately is "try to stay awake until I'm tired enough that I can't lay in bed with my thoughts whirring unpleasantly, get up when I have to after probably far too little sleep, and snag naps if there's an opportunity when I get so tired during the day that I can't think straight anymore".  I couldn't even tell you when or how much I sleep, and there's no name for the schedule I'm on other than perhaps "yikes".

My idea of a "diet" lately consists of snacks, comfort food, restaurant food, coffee and beer.  I try to make healthy choices in the snacks and restaurant departments, and to drink at least some water every day, but that's about the level of attention I've been able to give it.

I do still get a good amount of exercise, thankfully — I've learned over the last few years that it leads directly to better mental health, and I need all the help I can get, so I've been sticking close to kungfu and swimming whenever time permits, and throwing in situps and simple workouts whenever I can steal them.  I also have no car, so I walk a lot, and I always do so quickly and while paying close attention to my form.  I still have visible stomach-muscles, woot.

BUT, and this is the important thing in my mind, I HAVE largely* fixed my self-esteem problems.  And that's a big deal for me…I'm not coming from "a bit of body-image issues" or something, but rather a background of full-blown self-hatred and self-harm.  The things that fell apart on me lately were things I'd built with "I don't deserve better" in mind, and so, difficult as it is to stand in a smoking field and try to contemplate a suddenly scary future, I'm hopeful because I know this is the right direction.

Path, not goal.  Follow proper principles.  Eyes and hands open.

All hail the fishes swimming up waterfalls!  ;)

*The necessary breakthroughs have been made, but as with all such things, there's a sensitive period afterwards — much like the second two weeks of an adjustment to polyphasic sleep — wherein one must be careful not to slide back into old habits.  That's where I am now.

Originally published at *Transcendental *Logic. You can comment here or there.

I've been working on a Theory of Happiness.  (Because, what else do people do in-between underwater hockey and kungfu, right?  …Um, right?)  Specifically, I've been working on it with a friend, which is MUCH better a way to go about it, I think.  And I won't go into all of it here, because there's a LOT and I want to give it its own writeup at some point.

However.  This bit of it I came to on my own, and a while ago, but man has it been relevant lately so I wanted to write about it a little, if that's ok.  I call it…

EYES AND HANDS OPEN.

This is a way to approach life that, I think, minimizes suffering in all possible ways.  (Yes, that's a big claim.  Deal with it.  ;)

EYES OPEN means to value HONESTY foremost, and especially honesty with yourself, and to make it primary to all other logics.  If you don't have a clear view, any of your judgments could be wrong, and wrong judgments are likely to hurt you, period.  Whenever I'm making any hefty decisions, I make sure to pause and ask myself if I'm seeing as clearly as I could:  Time or effort spent getting a more honest view of things is always worth it

And how do you do that?  Many ways work, but here are some of mine:

• Let the water settle.  Stirred-up water is muddy, and if you're gasping from emotional rollercoasterism, you may very well have trouble seeing.  Sit quietly, watch some telly, go for a walk, do some pushups, or pour a stiff drink:  Whatever helps you settle a bit.
• Say it in words.  If you have a good sounding-board to state your claim to for bullshit-detecting, lucky you; otherwise, write it down and read it back to yourself (this is especially useful if you can combine it with letting the water settle; wait a while and then read it back).  
• List the factors.  Identify clearly what might be coloring your perceptions in this case.  What are some fears or past experiences you know you have that might be affecting you?  What about recent events that caused strong emotional reactions?  You don't have to discount what you're thinking just because it might be affected by something else, but knowing about those interactions can help you spot cognitive errors before they become problems.

HANDS OPEN is a little more complex, though I wouldn’t claim that either of these are actually trickier than the other.  They're both tricky, but also both within the reach of anybody's doing — all you have to be in order to do these is determined.

There are two components to Hands Open:  Accepting What Comes and Letting Go.  Again I will resort to the safety of my bullet-points:

• Be OPEN TO RECEIVE things that come your way:
  • Don’t let fear of the future stop you from undertaking things.
  • Don’t insist to yourself that if you can’t keep what’s coming, it’s not worth taking – accept good things for as long as they last.
  • Don’t let yourself think you don’t deserve it:  You don’t deserve a lot of the bad things you get, too.  Pain is not a punishment; pleasure is not a reward:  Things come as they need to, to you and everyone else.
  • Enjoy it, even if it’s small or seems silly:  Sunsets, fresh breezes, unexpected good songs on the radio, soft towels:  They’re all there for a reason, and they can make the difference between a tough day and a great one!
  • Look for things within reach – your life contains as much awesome as you see the potential for!  Grab a bike ride or a walk, enjoy a nifty view, have a beer in the shower…don’t be shy about enjoying the awesome stuff that’s right within arm’s length.

•  Be prepared to LET GO when it's time for things to pass:
  </p>
  • Don’t grasp, grab, cling, struggle, or freak out.  Breathe, remind yourself that things come and go, and that it’s normal for it to hurt but that the hurt will pass.
  • Don’t constantly poke the things or people you have, looking for assurances that they won’t leave you.  They will:  It’s a guarantee.  Even if everything goes perfectly, you will eventually die and have to let go of everything, so just stay used to the idea that letting go is part of having. 
    • Clinging and seeking assurances are also great ways to wear the things you have thin, which sometimes makes them leave you sooner!  Relax and take what they’re offering now, and you’ll keep them as long as possible.
  • Every time you feel the fear of things leaving you welling up, remind yourself that the only thing you can do to mitigate that pain is to appreciate those things as much as possible now. 
    • This, by the way, really works to alleviate the pain and fear!  Knowing that you are doing, and did do, your best to appreciate things and people while you had them is very calming, especially once you get used to doing it.
  • Letting things go may hurt, but it’s the only way to make room for new stuff.

In conclusion, pulling this off is really a feat of relaxation.  (And those aren't easy!) Relax your eyes and brain, and let the truth in – even if it shows you something icky, it’s better than not knowing.  Relax your hands: let them come unclenched, so that some things can fall away and others can land.  

To the extent that I've been successful with this part of the Theory, it's really helped me.  Hopefully it helps someone else too!

Originally published at *Transcendental *Logic. You can comment here or there.

Wonderful article at Pandagon, written in response to the gaggingly awful one at Cracked (which no, I'm not linking to). The latter was making the tired (yet somehow still reasonable to some people) claim that the whole reason we have misogyny in the world is that men just want to get laid so much more and so they do all kinds of crazy things to try to "impress" women by, um, oppressing them. Topic quote:

I don't believe that men build civilization to impress lazy women who keep saying no to sex, because we don't understand what it's really like to want it. I believe men built most things because women were shut out of political power, job opportunities, and education for most of history, and instead forced into servitude towards men in the home. I believe my theory has a lot of evidence for it, in the form of all of history.

But I really loved this bit at the end, because it gets to a point that's really hard to find your way to if you start from anywhere socially-acceptable: The point where we discuss how, you know, women DO want sex, and some of them in fact want it quite often and/or a lot and/or care quite a bit about the sexual attractiveness (not just the "being a good provider"ness) of their sexual partners. I loved how this was put:

More importantly, men get to feel hornier because they're socially supported in this. The whole of society is geared toward titillating men and discouraging female sexual desire. It's inherent to the Nice Guy® complaint, where men are entitled to feel physical attraction, but a woman who wants more than "nice" is shallow. It's evident in the way men and women dress, with women always mindful to wear stuff that makes them sexually attractive, whereas men have the opposite problem, and have to avoid being too sexualized lest they seem feminine. Naked women are draped over every inch of public space, and the internet is full of visually interesting porn for men, but our society barely can imagine what it would be like to try to attract a female eye. [...] It's easy for men to know right away how to be sexual, whereas women are still largely expected to figure it out for themselves—and even that's a recent invention, because pre-feminism, women were mostly just expected to do what men wanted. To a large extent, that's still true, but we're at least getting a few glimmers of liberty for women, but in many ways, the past few generations of women are real pioneers in trying to figure out what sex means when we're actually allowed to want it, even a little.

But even with the small amount of freedom we have, it's worth noting that a 30-year-old woman who admitted obliquely to having had non-procreative sex in Congress created a month long, nationwide scandal. Until that kind of pressure disappears completely, we can't even begin to measure what the "natural", unadulterated female sexuality would look like, and how it would compare to the celebrated and constantly titillated male sexuality. 

Either way, stop blaming sex for misogyny. If all men wanted was women to fuck them more, the English language wouldn't even have the word "slut" in it. 

via pandagon.net – it's the eye of the panda, it's the thrill of the bite.

Originally published at *Transcendental *Logic. You can comment here or there.

I'm awesome at grammar, but it's a talent, not a skill:  I do it in my guts, and I have to go back and think it through in order to tell you why something is right or not.  

(I can usually do that, because I soaked up all the grammar I learned very easily, since it was just attaching rules to things I already knew — though my early education was pretty horrid, so I wasn't exposed to a lot that people who went to better schools were.  …And no, this doesn't mean that every bit of English I write has perfect grammar; sometimes I get "entitled" about knowing how it should be, and change things because I feel like it; plus I like to experiment — especially with punctuation and word-formation — and sometimes I just go fast (ahem, quickly) or am lazy, like most people.  That said, though, this post and my general disposition totally does give anybody the right to nitpick at me for any grammatical errors they may find in anything I've written, and yup, I'm okay with that.)

(Also, excessive parentheses are a stylistic mistake, not a grammatical one.  ::sticks out tongue::)

So here's my conundrum:

• the phrase "a day's worth of stuff" contains a possessive form of the singular noun "day", which therefore has an apostrophe.  The apostrophe goes in front of the "s" rather than behind it because "stuff" is a collective noun, I think, referring to the heap or chunk rather than the many items that compose it, and therefore gets treated as singular.
• the phrase "a day's worth of things" contains a possessive form of the singular noun "day", which has an apostrophe before the "s" even though the object-noun "things" is definitely plural — which is normal, so okay.  But this establishes that when "day" is plural in this phrase, there's an apostrophe-s regardless of whether the object-noun is singular or plural
• both the phrase "many days worth of stuff" and the phrase "many days worth of things" seem (intellectually) like they ought to have apostrophes following the "s" in "days"…but "many days' worth of things" just looks wrong to me (a good sign that it is wrong!).  Furthermore, Googling produces about a 80/20 preference for not using the apostrophe, including in well-respected publications!  SO WHAT IS THE DEAL?

Ah, life mysteries.  If only they were all so tiny as the waveform of an apostrophe….

Originally published at *Transcendental *Logic. You can comment here or there.